On 22/06/07, paul at clubi.ie <paul at clubi.ie> wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Ian O'Connell wrote:
>> > A use for windows is irrelevent. if the machine came with windows
> > there is no sensible reason to just delete it unless you've several
> > machines to hand.
>> If one has no use for Windows, what's the point in keeping it??
Rainy day......
>> > what world do you live in? last time i talked with an engineer in
> > one of the larger isp's here after getting elevated from a support
> > desk to a network engineer i was informed that ping times and
> > latency are entirely unrelated....
>> Guess what, they were right.
So ping isn't a tool for determining network latency then?
>> > Which what now? 10 gigs is a trivial ammount of space these days.
>> Like I said, 1G would be >1% of the disk-space of my sub-1-year-old
> laptop.. 10GiB would be 1/6th.
>> Sorry, but I'd like to use that space. I can't comprehend that you
> think I shouldn't be able to.
If you've only one machine, then you could ghost the xp partition or
create a bart bootable xp environment. But for most senarios 1 - 10
gigs is trivial.
> > If an installer comes onsite and wants to configure a windows
> > machine to use service or do x y z, and wants windows, i'll let him
> > off configure and get the windows working. Thats fine,
>> That's great, and I'm glad you have that choice.
>> My choice is to just get the network settings and configure it
> myself.
>> Choice is good.
So your view is that if you do have an engineer on site you shouldn't
let him test the setup? Or at least if it causes you some amount of
inconvenience you'd send him away even though its possible there is a
hardware/fault outside your control? Sorry but if we had an engineer
on site to do something and i told my boss i didn't want to sully one
of my machines with an os so he could do the testing then it broke....
i think i'd quickly find myself in a lot of bother....
> > which what? most end user systems use a web based mechanism for
> > updating the firmware not TFTP. Can't say i've come across a
> > consumer solution requiring TFTP updates of firmware....
>> The windows graphical tools which come with some embedded
> routers and switches often use TFTP, as do the Java clients which
> some more expensive systems often load via web interfaces.
>> But thanks for pointing out there are even /more/, Os-independent,
> non-windows-requiring ways of updating firmware..
End-user client switches tend not to be managed, so one way or another
doesn't apply much to consumer kit. Anyway yes its all very os
independent...
> > And thats relevent how? the installer should know linux cause its
> > embedded somewhere?
>> I find it sadly ironic when system vendors go out and grab free code
> to build products with and then refuse to allow the communities that
> built and maintain those free OSes to fully use those products.
>> It's parasitic.
An isp isn't really a vendor of the hardware, they are users...... so
i don't see the relevence anyway.
> >> The desire that it continue to remain possible to have a choice in
> >> what OS to run is not zealotry.
>> > No but you seem to be suggesting one should limit ones choices not
> > increase them. Having windows and linux does not limit your
> > choices... Tim can refresh me here its a year since i finished but
> > 1 + 1 = 2 right which is > 1?
>> Again, both you and Tim are arguing for /limits/ in choice. You are
> arguing that:
>> - it is acceptable to require windows to:
> - maintain/update external network devices
> - initialise ISP accounts (Tim's example)
I actually didn't specify either maintainance or update, ever that i
can recall, i said install. Which is really quite different as it can
mean an engineer there. Anyway you could look at bios updates,
firmware updates for random devices. All trivial under windows but
lots of effort for some hardware under linux...
>> Ergo you're arguing that non-Windows systems be excluded from being
> able to fully interoperate with ISPs.
No, your making leaps, excluded no, but i don't see the point in
removing options from our pov to make the whole process smoother. We
can of course always fully interoperate, but dealing with tech support
or otherwise its nice to give back the figures/results that they are
familar with. Telling them the problem even if you know it rarely gets
you anywhere....
>> I don't see by what logic you could claim you are arguing for choice,
> other than that you wish to be able to "choose" to find the above
> acceptable.
Which acceptable? keep a trivial ammount of space or make a bootable
cd, neither are massive inconvenciences on an ongoing basis.
>> > Huh what now? a monoculture? not deleting something you paid for
> > incase you need it some day is a form of being a zealot?
>> You're presuming I've paid for Windows..
Have i not specified plenty of times that it only applies if windows
did indeed come with the machine? and explictatly state that i
wouldn't advocate buying it?
> Again, you're presuming your world is the same as everyone elses
> here.
Last time i checked we do all live on the same planet.
--
Ian.
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