Thou shalt keep windows on thy machines (was Re: [ILUG] Naive..etc.)

[Jimmy Tang]

On Fri, Jun 22, 2007 at 05:32:21PM +0100, paul at clubi.ie wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Jimmy Tang wrote:
> 
> >so the question remains, how many linux users here who claim that 
> >opensource is great and strongly disagree with using windows 
> >because its a tax that manufacturers impose on users also use 
> >things like binary blobs (un)knownlingly in their kernels to get 
> >hardware that the linux user has bought.
> 
> Very few I would imagine (if only cause you provided a specific and 
> odd reason that you ask people to agree on or not).
> 
> >a good example of this is nvidia or ati cards does the average 
> >linux user really care that they dont know how secure the binary 
> >blob is for video card as much as the next macosx or windows user? 
> >probably not.
> 
> They don't, through false pragmatism. I've moaned about this to 
> people in various places. See:
> 
>   http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=191863&cid=15761071
> 
> I'm often amused by the fact that there's a strong correlation 
> between the set of people who dont care about binary-blob graphics 
> drivers, and the set who moan about ATi's drivers sucking on Linux, 
> and/or NVidia not providing driver updates quickly enough.
> 
> The reason those two sets are near identical is obvious, but it still 
> amuses me. Those in the former set are obviously the ones who deserve 
> to suffer the problems those in the latter set complain about..
> 
> The annoying thing is that those people make it harder for everyone 
> else to /avoid/ being in the former set.
> 
> >but when you start throwing crappology in about "the 
> >manufacturer/company doesnt support linux" just because their user 
> >base is stupid and use windows.
> 
> No one could reasonably claim windows users are stupid. They may not, 
> on average, have as much interest in maintaining computers though. 
> Nor do many Linux/Unix users either..
> 

well, i guess i should have worded the above better, but its the idiocy
of some linux users assuming windows users are stupid simply because they
themselves think windows suck and windows shouldnt be around and linux
is better.

> Hence why we make fun of Gentoo users too..

good.

> >i think the linux user is just broken, because more than likely 
> >this linux user will be using some binary blob on their system, 
> >contradicting their beliefs of opensource and how software should
> 
> You confuse pragmatism for idealism.

probably, the fact is, most people just arent clear on what its all
about. and yes i probably am confused with all this like most users.

> 
> If you think free software is some airy-fairy crap espoused only by 
> ivory-tower inhabiting hippies, you've missed the point and need to 
> learn more about it.
> 

maybe. like most linux users, i may like some of the principles of it
all, but i just dont know enough of the stuff that drives all the
gpl/bsd/creative commons etc... licenses. like most users, i dont read
the licenses or EULA's and what nots ... so im not even going to argue
or try. im just expressing my own views that is all.

> >a driver to fix the problem even if i did have the specs, are you?
> 
> Never written one, no.
> 
> If you have specs, but can't write drivers, you can pay/beg/etc. 
> someone who can to get them to write one. If the driver ever has 
> problems, but the original author has moved on, you can pay someone 
> /else/ to fix the problems.
> 
> (the "pay someone" thing covers free software communities btw, even 
> if you don't pay someone directly - but that's a long email).
> 

i agree. im just saying a vast majority of people probably dont care and
just want it stuff to work. and i would be happy to pay for something
to have it work closed or opensource, i wouldnt care too much as long as
it worked. again these are just my own views.

> I.e. even if /you/ can't write drivers, specs are of value to you. 
> They increase the chance some hacker will write a good, maintainable 
> driver that you can then use.
> 
> If you don't understand that, you've not yet gotten the point.
> 

i do see the point in open specs and standards, i never said they are
not of any value to anyone, they are just of no use to a vast majority
of people.  

i think the point is on the note of needing windows to update firmwares
etc... is that i people often just want it to work. and most people who
bitch and whine about it not working with linux out of the box, then
tough *hit, you should have bought a linux(or whatever os compatible
piece of kit) in the first place. or if you're clever enough write a
driver. perhaps mail into a mailing list seeking advice, which is
reasonable. but more to the point, how did a simplish email asking about
advice on adsl and wifi turn into a discussion like this?

the main issue that got to me to post on this list (i dont post at all
i just read off the mail archives usually) are these stupid debates on
*oh im a linux user cause i think its better and i hate the windows tax*
or whatever arguement is thrown around about how wrong it is to just *use
the right tool* replace /tool/ with procedure or whatever correct action
is involved for the subject at hand even if it included windows as a tool.
which inevitably has turned into a thread like this. admitadly i have
exactly expressed myself in the best way above and in my previous post
so please excuse me. (apparently english isnt my first language).

there seems to be far most posts in this OT thread than what was
originally asked of from the original poster though he did seem to get the
answers that he was looking for. in fact i see threads like
degenerating into stupid flames and trolls, its just stupid.

in fact, im just going back to lurk, and disappear again...

Jimmy.

-- 
Jimmy Tang
Trinity Centre for High Performance Computing,
Lloyd Building, Trinity College Dublin, Dublin 2, Ireland.
http://www.tchpc.tcd.ie/ | http://www.tchpc.tcd.ie/~jtang